How did retired detective Lindsay Wade manage to get Ted Bundy's DNA into CODIS decades after his death?

After an attempt to extract DNA from letters Bundy sent to true crime author Ann Rule failed, investigators located vials of his blood from the 1970s that had been improperly stored at room temperature. Fortunately, forensic analysts were able to extract a usable sample from dried blood flakes found inside the tube's cap. Detective Lindsay Wade's relentless push to get this profile into the national database directly led to the recent cold-case confirmations of victims Laura Aime and Melissa Smith.

What is the controversial environmental contamination theory proposed in Caroline Fraser's book Murderland?

In Murderland, Fraser argues that heavy metal exposure from Pacific Northwest smelters—specifically toxic levels of lead and arsenic—combined with regional geology may have fueled violent deviant behavior in serial killers like Ted Bundy and Gary Ridgway. However, the hosts express skepticism, noting that countless residents faced the exact same environmental factors without turning into violent criminals. They also critique the book for perpetuating outdated, negative stereotypes about the city of Tacoma.

What unique perspective did Ted Bundy's cousin, Edna Cowell Martin, share about growing up with him?

Edna revealed that her family was so close to Bundy that her parents felt confident sending her to the University of Washington knowing Ted was there to watch over her. Later in life, she wrote to him on death row hoping to elicit confessions, noting that he consistently refused to admit to killing any victims under the age of 18. She also shared how surviving a violent assault herself made her realize Bundy specifically weaponized people's kindness and willingness to help against them.

Why does the upcoming documentary Killing Theodore require a specialized mental health plan for its crew?

To combat the psychological toll and trauma often associated with investigating grizzly true crime, director Celine Beth Olsen hired mental health consultant Michelle Backe to support the project. Every production member and interviewee is required to develop a personal mental health strategy and attend regular check-ins before and after interviews. The team even schedules mandatory multi-week production hiatuses over the winter holidays to ensure no one remains immersed in dark subject matter continuously.

What troubling discovery did Alicia make regarding the final resting place of Bundy victim Janice Ott?

While visiting a cemetery in North Spokane to place flowers at the Ott family plot, Alicia learned that Janice Ott's memorial urn is actually empty. Due to bureaucratic negligence and mishandling across decades, investigators in Seattle managed to lose track of her physical remains entirely. This revelation underscores the episode's broader critique of how historical law enforcement agencies often failed victims and their families even after cases were closed.

Grit City After Dark: Beyond Ted Bundy

On a quintessential misty Pacific Northwest evening, host Shay steps into the studio alongside producer and guide Alicia Elliott to unpack an extraordinary night of storytelling from the historic core of Tacoma. Gathering at the Spanish Ballroom inside McMenamins Elks Temple for *Grit City After Dark*, the duo joined a sold-out crowd to witness three remarkable women reclaim the narrative surrounding one of Washington State’s darkest chapters: serial killer Ted Bundy. Rather than glorifying a predator, the evening refocused the lens on victim advocacy, forensic breakthroughs, and personal survival.

The conversation centers first on the tireless dedication of retired Tacoma Police Department detective Lindsay Wade, whose tenacity reshaped modern cold case investigations. Shay and Alicia delve into Wade’s years-long crusade against bureaucratic red tape to finally upload Bundy’s DNA profile into the national CODIS database. Listeners will hear the jaw-dropping forensic details of how scientists extracted viable profiles from tiny flakes of dried blood preserved on a tube cap from the 1970s—a breakthrough that recently solved the Utah cold cases of Laura Aime and Melissa Smith. The hosts examine Wade’s legislative impact through Washington's Jennifer and Michelle’s Law and confront the sobering reality of untested sexual assault kits gathering dust on evidence shelves nationwide.

The episode also navigates Caroline Fraser’s provocative book *Murderland*, which examines whether environmental contamination—specifically lead and arsenic emissions from Tacoma smelters—and regional geography influenced violent crime in Pierce County. From Gary Ridgway to Charles Manson’s time at McNeil Island, the hosts examine these theories while passionately pushing back on Fraser’s bleak portrayal of Tacoma, celebrating instead the vibrant history, architecture, and enduring resilience of "Grit City."

In the night's most vulnerable segment, the discussion turns to Edna Cowell Martin, Bundy’s cousin who shared a childhood home with him. Martin’s harrowing firsthand perspective reveals how Bundy weaponized human empathy and politeness against his victims, contrasting her terrifying memories with her quiet courage in confronting him on death row to seek closure for families.

Finally, Alicia provides an inside look at her work producing the upcoming documentary *Killing Theodore*, directed by Celine Beth Olsen. Prompted by the shocking discovery that the Seattle Police Department lost the physical remains of 1974 Lake Sammamish victim Janice Ott, the project prioritizes survivor dignity and features an innovative on-set mental health protocol designed to protect families and crew from secondary trauma. Grab a warm brew, lean into the Puget Sound fog, and join *Rainy Day Rabbit Holes* for a necessary, deeply compassionate dive into the shadows of Pacific Northwest history.

What happens when the Ted Bundy story is told by someone who actually knew him?

Shea and Ellicia are fresh from Grit City After Dark, a night of Pacific Northwest true crime at Tacoma's Spanish Ballroom featuring retired Tacoma detective Lindsey Wade, Pulitzer Prize-winning author Caroline Fraser, and Ted Bundy's cousin Edna Cowell Martin.

Edna Cowell Martin, co-author of Dark Tide: Growing Up With Ted Bundy, offers a perspective dramatically different from the infamous mythology surrounding Bundy: what it was like discovering that someone she had known and loved within her family was capable of terrible crimes.

Lindsey Wade, author of In My DNA, brings the investigator's perspective through her career with the Tacoma Police Department, including her work on cold cases.

And Caroline Fraser, author of Murderland: Crime and Bloodlust in the Time of Serial Killers, zooms out to look at serial murder and the Pacific Northwest through a broader historical and cultural lens.

Then the rabbit hole gets personal.

Ellicia talks about her work as an assistant producer on Killing Theodore, a documentary project that has sought to move the conversation away from the mythology surrounding Ted Bundy and toward the people affected by his crimes.

We're talking about cold cases, DNA, family secrets, true-crime storytelling, Tacoma history, and the uncomfortable question underneath all of it:

How do we tell these stories without making the killer the most important person in the room?